Flutterby™! : 2001-09-11 theories thread 2008-01-28 17:01:02.764867+00

2001-09-11 theories thread

2008-01-28 17:01:02.764867+00 by Dan Lyke 31 comments

Okay, because you asked for it, here's a place to continue the assorted theories about September 11, 2001. I leave you all to it, for me this topic has been rehashed far beyond my attention span.

You really need to introduce icons like Slash to the FlutterbyCode. Except instead of signifying the topic of the original post, the icons should "warn" of the contents of the comments. I'm thinking along the lines of:

I can anticipate that I'll be wearing that tin-foil hat often (or be branded as such). :^)

It will be interesting to note and document (and I'm sure there will be some who will do this) exactly how many times GW uses the words "terror, al-quaida, 9/11, and terrorists" and "link" them together tonight during his last State of the Union address.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-29 12:10:38.938865+00 by: jeff [edit history]

Ok, I'll start this off. Here is a very brief, but most interesting slide-show, which includes a few very short embedded demolition videos:

There are two components to research here. The first is to plausibly consider whether the 47-story WTC #7 building was destroyed in 6.5 seconds by fire, or by controlled demolition. (Free-fall time from the WTC #7 building roof is calculated to be 5.96 seconds). The second research component is to better understand possible reasons why WTC #7 has been largely omitted from government reporting, including the 9/11 Commission Report.

I'd like to better understand the stark ommission of WTC #7 from the final 9/11 Commission Report (why was it left out?), and also the government's explanation that WTC #7, along with the towers, were all destroyed by fire? To my knowledge, there is no precedent in modern engineering history anywhere in the world for a steel-framed high-rise building to be destroyed by fire, prior to the "9/11 incident."

The folks at Flutterby have a lot of intellectual capital from broad backgrounds to bring to bear on this related and specific 9/11 sub-event (WTC #7).

Given the magnitude of such a plot and the market for credible info on a plot, someone would've figured out there was an INCREDIBLE pile of cash to be made from selling REAL info, documentation, notes, etc from said plot. ANY documentation or hint of participation would be worth tens of millions of dollars to the holder or even someone who participated.

A plot of this size would involve SOME paperwork, SOME documentation, SOMETHING. One credible fax of a memo or hint of a plot, even an anonymous fax, brings huge revenue to any news organization, publisher, or ANYONE who possesses it. Nothing. NADA. No shred of a hint of a fragment of credible documentation of a plot exists almost 7 years later with folks eagerly seeking and willing to pay MILLIONS for it. That's impossible.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-29 18:04:42.291388+00 by: jeff [edit history]

Topsin, with respect to WTC #7 (which is what I'm trying to limit this initial discussion to now), none of the FEMA "volunteer workers" were apparently allowed "on-site," and were "given" cherry-picked items for analysis. Who was "calling the shots" to control this "evidence clean-up" exercise?

It was reported through many sources that much of the rubble (steel, etc.) was quickly sold to offshore firms in India and China for melting, and that the trucks "carrying the evidence off" were equipped with $1K GPS tracking devices. Guiliani's "command center" was also located in WTC #7. It is certainly plausible that the demolition ("pulling") of WTC #7 was thought out well ahead of time to both destroy evidence AND to provide a false basis that FIRES brought these buildings down at near free-fall speeds.

JT--your response is largely debunked here. Most of the fuel burned off in minutes and in one of the towers it mostly burned off in seconds. But I digress, I'm trying to limit the discussion to WTC #7 for the moment (how did fire/heat bring that building down in 6.5 seconds). None of us has access to "perfect information," so let's make our points as best we can.

jeff, that website is a conspiracy theorists wet dream. No matter what website I post, you'll be able to find a site that "debunks" whatever I post. It's how conspiracy theories are kept alive. Conspiracies to a lot of people are more along the lines of religions, the facts introduced are either false if it disagrees with their theory/religion or completely ignored if it doesn't follow into their theory's/religious beliefs.

Conspiracies and religions are both based on faith, not on facts or information. People believe what they want to, even if the facts point toward something else. And there are enough people on the internet to where you could probably find an article saying the sky was not in fact blue if you looked hard enough.

I have a friend who works in NYPD and was on duty a mile away when the first plane hit. He watched the second plane fly in the building. My cousin's former roomie from tech school in the AF was at the pentagon when the plane hit there. Neither of them doubt anything the media's reported and my friend at NYPD actually gets angry if anyone even brings up a conspiracy theory. He says they're all utter bs and no one has a right to say anything about there unless they were at ground zero when it happened. Of course, this doesn't stop me from having an opinion about what happened, and even if we completely reconstructed a wtc setup and flew airplanes into it 20 more times to reproduce the same thing that happened, I'm sure some people would still refuse to believe it.

Radio controlled planes, missiles hitting the pentagon, faked phone calls from loved ones who were either maliciously killed by the government or relocated by the federal marshalls, all of these things don't add up. I think the government botched intelligence and didn't act when they could... it doesn't mean they killed american citizens so they could take over oil producing countries by force.

If you want to concentrate on one part of a large event which seems shady, you can infer that the entire situation was shady as well... however the simple truth is that you're just cherry-picking the one part of the argument which supports your point the best and ignoring all other information pertaining to the event. In debate, we used to call it "sniping", where you take a shot at the one weak point of an argument and exploit it enough to where the entire argument can seem invalid. It's done in courts across this nation every day to infer reasonable doubt where none exists. Conspiracy theorists thrive off of it.

After all, Johnny Cochran said "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit" indicating that if one glove didn't fit OJ Simpson, the entire case was a sham. No matter where the rest of the evidence pointed, it was his mantra that he repeated over and over.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-29 18:57:50.676318+00 by: jeff [edit history]

JT--this isn't about religion. Perhaps that's an internalized projection from your viewpoint, but not mine. This is about real science and real attempts at fact-finding. Due to the nature of your response, it is nearly certain that you didn't even read through the links which were presented, since you make no reference to anything contained within them. What substance are you bringing to this discussion? I would politely ask you to think through your assertions beforehand.

For the record, I don't ascribe to the "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit" mantra. But perhaps you do, only from the opposite direction? You may not even realize this.

If you want to "broaden the scope of this analysis," go for it. What may now appear to be a small number of "holes" in the government's position might open up into something larger than just a torpedo hole in the Lusitania.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-29 19:59:51.982431+00 by: jeff [edit history]

Given the lack of perfect information, most of us are working with educated conjecture (including me). I don't have access to many or all of the absolute facts, nor would I ever profess that. However, there is a very strong heuristic which suggests that "things aren't always as they seem, or as they are presented to us." To repeat a quote which could have some relevance here:

"They must find it difficult... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority."

Jeff, what you miss is that someone, by now, who was "in on" this "plot" would have to realize they had information worth MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars. Demolition doesn't just occur. Highly trained personnel would have had to place those charges and detonated them. NYC was victimized, yet you expect that no one is going to eventually TALK? No one saw these charges placed? No recalls seeing ANYTHING like that?

The notion that one of the folks "in on" this "plot" hasn't "turned"... realized what a huge error this world changing conspiracy "plot" was.... seen the enormous money they could make.... even faxed info somewhere anonymously. NOTHING. 7 years. Plenty of time for personnel to have gotten out of the armed forces, CIA, etc. NOTHING. Plenty of time for someone to crack. NOTHING.

No one has come forward and said, "I was part of this.... here is proof..." Perhaps the greatest single act of terror ever and it's an inside job and the person, regardless of their role, who unveiled this with any shred of proof would become an IMMEDIATE national and international hero, yea verily, they would be a friggin' historical icon that rocked the very foundations of America.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-29 20:44:20.199779+00 by: jeff [edit history]

Topspin, that is a very powerful argument. At the end of the day, however, the proposition is still based on a heuristic.

And one needs to look no further than the Gulf of Tonkin incident to understand that these types of "events" often take a generation or more to be completely understood, and the truth ultimately revealed. 7 years was not the final word, and I suspect it won't be with 9/11.

The simplicity (and sheer elegance) of a possible "inside job" may not be as nearly complicated as you may think. I've actually worked through a few scenarios, and the number of "unkowing accomplices" could outnumber any "active accomplices" by SEVERAL orders of magnitude, and possibly even more. And I'll tell 'ya what. I'll split the publishing money with you if we crack the case and are able to live and tell about it!

As a related aside, with all of the misinformation being pushed on the media, it is very difficult to fully understand how tightly interwoven our CIA is with Musharraf's own internal (ISI) security forces. Hold that thought (or feel free to discuss it if you like). I'll return to it later.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-29 21:17:10.759588+00 by: JT [edit history]

Instead of quoting the whole "melted steel" section of the article, I'll just post a link to it...

http://www.serendipity.li/

They confuse the term "ignites" and "burns" a number of times in this article. In our example, let's assume the "jet fuel" they're talking about is JP1-A

Flash point according to msds is 101° to 162°F with an autoignition temperature of 410°F

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-29 21:56:08.463981+00 by: jeff [edit history]

JT--thanks for posting the links and your comments. It will take some time for me to read through them in their entirety.

One immediate point to make is that many experts believe the fires in WTC 1/2 were "oxygen starved," and didn't produce heat anywhere near the range needed to weaken the steel infrastructure to precipitate a building collapse (and that the jet fuel was consumed in seconds to minutes, depending on the building). I did browse completely through the ImplosionWorld link, and one of their final conclusions was:

"We do not know exactly how or why WTC 7 fell when it did," and we decline to hypothesize here."

Read in complete context they essentially say that WTC 7 "possibly" could have been felled by fires and ancillary damage from the tower debris field, but they can't say with any degree of certainty that is what actually happened.

The other points made in the article require further study. Some make sense; others are possibly misleading. I'll probably take the time to read through them several times over the next day or two before responding and offering my own comments.

Jeff, if someone believed they were an "unknowing accomplice" who somehow structurally weakened the towers or did "odd electrical" or "odd wiring" or any such things that would've required SEVERAL man-hours of specific wiring, judicious steel cutting, placing thermite charges, etc to weaken ANY of WTC buildings for implosion.... but not just any implosion, an odd implosion that started specifically on the high floors hit by the planes, so those that planted the thermite, wired the thermite charges, pre-cut the steel, etc on those floors..... even if done unknowingly, would NOW have a clue, eh?

Even if you could convince me that folks unknowingly took part in wiring, cutting steel, and planting charges before the implosion, why haven't we heard from them?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-30 11:28:24.417227+00 by: jeff [edit history]

Topspin, you are referring to "active accomplices" in your last post. Of course, they would know exactly what they were doing.

When is the last time you heard from the CIA, the NSA, Mossad, or the ISI with regard to their covert activities? They simply don't tell people what they do. You won't find any "quarterly reports" coming from those organizations for public consumption.

IF you acknowledge the generally-accepted premise that "radical islam" can produce suicide bombers capable of killing thousands of people, then you must also accept the diametric (but related) premise that highly motivated "neoconservative patriots" will do anything that will advance their movement. Including killing thousands of innocent people ("for the better good"). The motivations of powerful men has not changed over the millenia.

History is replete with many similar examples. If I'm not mistaken (and I hope that I'm not confusing you with someone else; please accept my apologies if I am), didn't you grow up during the Bay of Pigs and the Gulf of Tonkin incidents? How did you resonate with them growing up? How do you come to better understand them now? "Perception and premise," whether contrived or representing absolute truths, IS reality, my friend.

Jeff, I'm 50. I was young when Vietnam started, nearly grown when it ended. Sure, it colors my generation heavily and we were lied to extensively in those days.

Conspiracy is, as JT said, a matter of faith despite facts. ESPECIALLY in this era and ESPECIALLY now with most of the nation having serious second thoughts about the direction of American foreign policy and domestic restrictions of freedom since 9/11.... there would be tremendous outrage, historical note, and don't forget money for someone who "outted" such a plot.

My girlfriend was a student at Juilliard in NYC at the time of the attacks and I told her of this discussion. While her exact words about you and those who espouse such theories are not something I'll repeat, she mentioned that NYC doesn't keep secrets well and NYC takes care of its own and the rest of the damn country can go to hell as far as they care. Even the hardest, most cynical, most conservative, most greedy, most neocon residents of NYC wouldn't participate in a "plot" that claimed the lives of other New Yorker's.... it's unthinkable. They are New Yorker's first, Americans second.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-30 15:22:40.8014+00 by: jeff [edit history]

Topspin, I'm also 50. I have faint recollections of JFK's assassination, and all of the turmoil which existed in that decade, including Vietnam. In my view, on a positive note, I believe the period of the 60's was likely the most incredible decade in all of American history. I wish I had grown up as an adult during that period. I missed the Vietnam War, but I later served America in the Army as an air-defense radar repair technician while attached to the 2nd Infantry Division in South Korea. I've been to Panmunjon and have stepped into North Korean soil. I know first-hand from the front lines what it's like to be on war footing in the field (for an entire week) when commercial airliners are brought down (circa 1978).

On September, 11, 2001, I was taking a shower in a hotel room in Twin Falls, Idaho, when the first plane struck. The TV was on in my room, and I saw one of the towers on fire when I came out of the shower. I saw the second plane hit in real-time (as recorded on broadcast video), and I immediately thought "terrorism!" My goal for getting up early that day was to reach Yellowstone National Park, but I remained in my hotel room until it was time to check-out. My eyes watered frequently, and I nearly cried a number of times as the towers fell and cemented the legacy of thousands of innocent people.

Having said this, I have no direct emotional attachment to horrible acts of 9/11. I don't personally know anyone who was directly and personally affected by the tragedy. I can understand the thoughts and passions of others, however, who may have been more directly affected. It can still elicit an emotional response whenever the topic is brought up, and understandably so in this case. I am deeply sorry for your loss Topspin, and for your girlfriend's loss.

Jeff, like you, I was on the road on 9/11. I was in hotel in Las Vegas preparing to fly home from hiking in Zion Natl Park (which you've got fabulous shots of) and, also like you, getting dressed when I saw the first CNN flash of the news. I continued getting dressed and saw replays of tower 2 getting hit. A few minutes later, in McCarran Airport, I heard people screaming from the bars and other TVs as the towers went down. Terror, anger, chaos, and finally.... camaraderie filled the airport.

It was surreal 3 days later, back at the airport as I had been every morning, when I finally realized I was going home. While waiting in the boarding area for a flight to Nashville, a stout, 30something guy with a stoic, furrowed brow caught my eye, walked over and after some talk about the events said, "Things are different. I've been stuck here with my wife," he glanced toward a lady. "You're a good sized guy." I nodded. "I just wanna know somebody's got my back if some shit starts on the plane...." My heart skipped a beat; we looked at each other, clasped hands, he returned to his wife, and we both began silently, seriously inventorying our fellow passengers.

I have no connection to anyone killed on 9/11 and my girlfriend talks very little about it, but I don't believe she lost anyone close to her in the attacks. Trite as it is, like JFK's assassination (on my 6th birthday,) 9/11 changed us all. It wasn't a collective loss of innocence.... that was gone long before, but rather the coming home to roost of decades of awful vulturistic foreign policy. Yes, Dr. Paul is correct there.

Anyway, since we may be the only ones reading here. Good on you for your photos, Jeff! Great work!

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-30 20:54:29.714146+00 by: jeff [edit history]

Topspin, thank you very much for the compliments on my Zion NP photos. I wish I could have spent more than just the one day there for that batch, but that short trip included Zion NP, Bryce NP, SW Grand Canyon, and Death Valley NP. I've been to Zion NP four times in my life, and it remains one of my favorites among all of our national parks. I'll be back again someday. I love the intimacy of being IN the canyon.

Thanks for relating your airport story; that must have seemed surreal. I mentioned that 9/11 didn't affect me directly, but it did have an effect on my girlfriend/partner at the time, which in turn had an effect on me.

When 9/11 occurred, I was living in the SF Bay area, but taking time off to explore the Pacific Northwest, some interior national parks, and part of western Canada (a planned hiatus between consulting gigs). I was going to meet my girlfriend in Calgary for her birthday. When it became obvious that planes were going to be grounded for 3-4 days, she rented a car. We instead met in Spokane (where she turned in her rental car), and then we continued driving mine into Canada for a tour of the Canadian Rockies. At the time she was working in the travel industry for a very small outfit, and subsequently lost her job (due to the reduced air travel).

What was interesting to about that trip was listening to all of the local radio hosts in different states (and in different provinces in Canada) react to the tragedy in many different ways. Universally, all of western Canada was totally supportive and behind America as brethren. In some very conservative states (such as Idaho), there were clarion calls for the removal of all muslims from America. Of course, many of the details of the attack hadn't been fully documented yet. It certainly was a catalyzing event. That made crossing into Canada at a remote location in Montana "very interesting," as was returning to America via Victoria and a ferry to Port Angeles (WA).

Zion is where my heart feels is home and I've been about 6 times now. I actually plan to retire to St. George, Hurricane, or somewhere around there, if the dang Californicators haven't run the real estate market through the roof by the time I get there. I'd love to be an old educator at the park or help out in some way until I become dust.

As for airports, I've never forgotten that day and I related the story to a beautiful traveling partner when we flew to Chicago for "Wicked" and she noticed folks in the Nashville airport sorta "sizing up" their fellow passengers and again when we went to Vegas from the Louisville airport. Perhaps it's a southern thing or perhaps it's just me, but I feel a certain wary responsibility when I board a flight now. Perhaps others do also?

I saw your Glacier shots too. What a beautiful place! I hope to get back to it before my legs are worthless.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-01-30 23:02:47.413908+00 by: jeff [edit history]

We have such a beautiful country, but the nature of our economy and the population growth from undocumented workers eventually may overrun many of these pristine areas. For example, I had a conversation with one of the Zion NP bus drivers, who lived just outside the park, and he told me in no uncertain terms that the undocumented folks were "taking over" in those parts. Between that trend, and "the Californicators driving up real estate," I'm afraid that SW Utah may not remain utopic for us much longer. And that's just plain sad. Heck, I'd love to retire in that area too.

I'm wearing my "Hike Zion" shirt right now. My in-laws gave it to me for X-mas. They live in St. George.

Yes, the price of real estate has been driven up by the Californians but there's still good places out there. The West, in general, is more expensive than the Southeast. As long as you're prepared for the general price difference, it's not that bad. Not any worse than, say, Atlantans driving up real estate in Chattanooga. And there's also the other side of the park. There are lots of little villages along US-89 and you're sandwiched between Bryce and Zion. That area gets more snow than St. George - which is in the northeast corner of the Mojave Desert.

As for "population growth from undocumented workers" - have you been to Utah? I always take my car to the carwash in St. George while I'm there. Mostly because it's a cultural event. Unlike probably every other carwash in this country - everyone working there is white! Utah's one of least densely populated states in the country and it would take quite a few undocumented workers to really make a dent.

And I have to say that Topspin's take on the conspiracy is quite solid. I remember my father, who was in the Air Force for 30 years, getting grilled by Jim Hale over Area 51 and UFOs. My father laughed and said "The stealth bomber was the biggest secret project the Air Force ever attempted. Revel and the other model makers had very, very detailed specs and models on the shelf at Toys-R-Us at least a year before the B-2 was announced publicly. The government is not very good at keeping secrets. If there were UFOs in Area 51, we'd all know."

#Comment Re: made: 2008-02-01 03:33:27.549931+00 by: jeff [edit history]

North, south, east, or west, I've been through substantial parts of Utah many times Eric. Of course I have an idea what the population density is like in that area of the world. One can dangle a leg over a 1500-foot cliff at Dead Horse State Park and see for dozens of miles to the south, where it's unlikely you'd find more than a handful of people in some of the remote sections of Canyonlands NP at any given time. That's just one of many examples I can personally cite.

I might add, we're not talking about where people can't live, we're talking about where people CAN and DO live. Like the little towns you mention along the corrider of US-89. Those are exactly the kinds of examples the Zion NP bus driver, who lived in the general area, mentioned to me during my last trip to Zion and Bryce in 2006. I don't live in the area. I'm only relating (and directly quoting) what a resident told me. And I nearly always put more stock into what a local resident will say as opposed to a tour guide or what unreliable census data may indicate. For example, how many undocumented workers have been documented in Utah?

Regardless of who lives in Utah, it's still one of the most geographically unique and beautiful states in the entire country. I'll be back. In fact, I've considered bagging the state highpoint (Kings Peak) for the last couple of years. That might serve as a good warm-up for another Kili ascent, especially due to the length of the trail to the summit.

As for 9/11, the perpatrators did not spend many years building a plane at a static secret location, so the B-2 analogy you use may not be completely applicable or even usable in this case. So, what is the government working on now that we should all be aware of? Sorry, I couldn't resist asking, Eric. <grin>

One needs to be a hearty soul to want to live in the Escalante area. My forays in that area have given me a healthy respect for how serious a mistake in judgment could be there.

Jeff, if you've never photographed Calf Creek Falls it might interest you. I've never seen a picture which captures the colors of the algae on the falls. It's a good reason to live east of Bryce. Hwy 12 simply crosses a freaky little stretch of earth; several miles of beautiful desolation.

There will probably be lots of real estate in the Colorado City, AZ/Hildale, UT area if the prophet's people are truly leaving.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-02-01 12:53:47.403537+00 by: jeff [edit history]

Wow, Calf Creek Falls looks very interesting and beautiful, Topspin. Thanks for sharing! There really are sections of Utah that, when you pass near them, do seem like no place on Earth. I've often mentioned and thought to myself that touring the state seems like visiting another planet.

Utah has some of the most remote areas in the 48 contiguous states. The Escalante area and the Canyonlands NP area are two of those. I believe that Aron Ralston became trapped in that southern portion of Utah.

In no particular order, Zion, Glacier, and Yosemite are my three favorite national parks. Rocky Mountain NP would rank high, too.