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'Holy rock' judge suspended

2003-08-24 04:46:03.668796+00 by Shawn 11 comments

I have the utmost respect for those fellow Flutterbians of faith who have shared their personal take on religion with me (I found you all very reasonable ;-) but I feel a great many go too far. I find the suspension of this judge, who refuses to remove his monument to the 10 comandments from the courthouse, and the subsequent investigation, entirely appropriate.

During a discussion a few weeks back I was asked (by way of establishing a baseline) if I believed that this country's laws were based on biblical teachings. Having done some thinking about the question, I'd have to say that yes, there is evidence to that effect. But a good idea is a good idea, regardless of where it comes from. Just because the founding fathers (and mothers) said, "yeah, those are good rules," doesn't automatically mean the entire doctrine should be applied wholesale.

That sounds too much like when my freshman social studies instructor told us we had to accept the *entire* bible as fact because a few places and events depicted therein had been proven to have been real.

comments in ascending chronological order (reverse):

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-24 20:08:35.622391+00 by: Mark A. Hershberger

So, are the 10 good ideas or bad? Putting them up doesn't mean you agree with the whole Bible, does it?

And if acceptance of the 10 doesn't mean acceptacne of the whole Bible, why should the judge be suspended?

(Not that those who read this would say all 10 are good ideas...)

#Comment Re: [Entry #6461] Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-24 21:16:03.934708+00 by: Shawn

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:11:03 +0000 (UTC), Mark A. Hershberger wrote:

> And if acceptance of the 10 doesn't mean 
> acceptacne of the whole Bible, why should the judge be suspended?

There is a difference between 10 generic ideas and 10 precisely-worded phrases specifically depicted on stone tablets, with the title "The Ten Commandments".

I may not have been clear in my original post but I am not saying we have accepted the Ten Commandments as a bood basis for law. What I am saying is that we have agreed (as a society) on a set of ideals that happen to parallel the Ten Commandments. Then we (the founders) went even further to clarify that the country should not be beholden to religious ideals, by declaring a separation of church and state. This is why the judge should be suspended. He is imposing his personal beliefs over the ideals of the founding documents of this country.

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-24 21:24:41.360966+00 by: Dan Lyke [edit history]

Actually, while I'm a strong believer in jury nullification, I believe that that's only for ignoring law. The making of laws should be reserved for the legislature. In refusing to remove the tablets, Roy Moore is saying that he believes that he is entitled to create his own law outside of the checks and balances of that three legged structure that has served us well.

I'm not sure of the details of his oath of office, but I'm pretty sure that at this point he's unequivocally violated that particular trust, and I'm pretty sure I'd say that even if I agreed with his stance. If he wanted to resign over the issue, that's great, but refusing the direct order to remove the tablets says that he doesn't believe in the hierarchy of the judiciary. If he doesn't believe in it and won't remove himself, then it seems completely fair that he should be removed from it.

Now on the ridiculous point, I'd like to find the law school that graduated someone who can look at the history of this country and come to the conclusion that his particular deity is the foundation of U.S. law. That speaks to gross incompetence on the part of some university or another.

On the actual fifteen ten, let's count 'em down:

  1. You shall have no other gods before me.

While we can debate whether or not this is creating a law, that sounds like either a "law respecting an establishment of religion" or, if this is how he'll interpret the law based on those who bring grievance to him, about "prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

  1. No graven images

Larry addresses this one fairly well.

  1. Don't take the name of the lord in vain.

Damn (whoops, sorry), here we are at "law respecting an establishment of religion" again. This guy is definitely not a strict constitutionalist.

  1. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy

Although I'm not generally much on the labor movement, I'm cool with a day off a week. I'm not sure which day is something that should be written into law...

  1. Honor your father and your mother

I think pretty much everyone should have to earn respect. sounds like someone trying to dictate by fiat what should be derived by character.

  1. No killing.

I go back and forth on this one. The redneck in me believes that there are some people who just need killin'. Wonder how Roy Moore feels about Alabama's death row?

  1. No adultery

Sounds like trying to override contract law for civil disputes to me.

  1. You shall not steal.

This has the dormant objectivist ready to go off, but I'm sure we can find Roy Moore guilty on a technicality on this one.

  1. No perjury

Uhhh... How does Mr. Moore feel about his oath of office?

  1. No coveting.

Anyone who thinks our culture is rooted in biblical principles hasn't been paying attention.

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-25 00:33:43.723555+00 by: TheSHAD0W

Neal Boortz said it right...

"OK, I heard Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore talking yesterday about his battle to keep that Ten Commandments monument in the Alabama Judicial building. Now some of you are going to call this "Christian bashing, " but this guy sounds like a theocrat to me. While listening to him I got the impression that he would be all too willing to take his religious beliefs and have them made law so that others could be compelled by the state to live as he thinks God wants them to. If you closed your eyes you could easily imagine him standing there before those news cameras with a double-fistful of snakes. If you gave this man the power he would shut every retail store in Alabamastan on Sunday."

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-25 20:03:45.994045+00 by: baylink

15 commandments, indeed. Yeah, I'm a fan, too.

Nicely put, everyone.

Me? I don't know who's cranking; I'm pleased she doesn't stop.

Yeah, I stole that one from him, too.

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-25 20:05:17.455976+00 by: baylink

Hey, Dan?

text mode has apparently stopped recognizing blank lines; that posting above was supposed to be 4 grafs.

This one, 3.

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-25 21:17:51.064485+00 by: Dan Lyke

Jay, you have spaces in your blank lines. I had been using that for some other purposes, but it's bit me once or twice so I've changed the parser a bit.

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-26 17:55:35.107611+00 by: Dan Lyke

The Chronicle runs down the different 10 commandments, those shopping for a sect might want to look at the various translations to find one that better fits their lifestyle.

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-26 18:15:54.367225+00 by: Mark A. Hershberger

(Late response because I've been w/o Internet.)

I really could care less about this particular judge. A lot of the Right-Wing Xians seem more concerned with raising a ruccus about their rights than doing the right thing. Case in point: civil unions for people of the same sex. If people spent as much energy on loving their neighbor as they did worrying about what the government calls a marriage....

Anyway, my only nit was really that Shawn seemed to say "it's possible to accept the 10 w/o accepting the authority of the Bible" (he actually said "Just because the founding fathers (and mothers) said, 'yeah, those are good rules,' doesn't automatically mean the entire doctrine should be applied wholesale.") but then said that this judge should be removed because he had these slabs of granite. In his words: "That sounds too much like when my freshman social studies instructor told us we had to accept the *entire* bible as fact because a few places and events depicted therein had been proven to have been real."

#Comment Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-26 22:04:35.317506+00 by: Dan Lyke

So I keep seeing the title of this post and thinking "'Holy rock'? I'm familiar with a few Christian metal bands, is that more towards the 'Bob Seger does psalms' end of the scale?"

#Comment Re: [Entry #6461] Re: 'Holy rock' judge suspended made: 2003-08-27 18:01:03.714476+00 by: Shawn

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:16:03 +0000 (UTC), Mark A. Hershberger wrote:

> Anyway, my only nit was really that Shawn 
> seemed to say "it's possible to accept the 10 w/o accepting the authority of 
> the Bible" (he actually said "Just because the founding fathers (and mothers) 
> said, 'yeah, those are good rules,' doesn't automatically mean the entire 
> doctrine should be applied wholesale.")

Yes, that was extremely poor wording on my part. What I should have said was, "Just because the founders' rules coincide with those espoused by [a] religion doesn't mean we should actually adopt that doctrine."